jjk, I completely agree. I hope it doesn't go down that route as well. It is an open meeting, so I am sure that there will be some people wanting to discuss that aspect of it, which in my view is the least important issue affecting it. I hope I haven't put you off attending - the more people that are there to discuss the important issues the better and I was only trying to point out that this is the only issue that I am aware of that is in any way contentious.

Sorry, no. I didn't get the job!


Although I have often been accused of this, count me out. I prefer to deal with facts, in the open.

It's okay, JJK, I was not picking a fight with you (I thought we called it quits last time anyway!). Let's clear up the hotel bit. I study data and feedback everywhere I can, from all over the world, simply to learn. If the Kinross facility were to consider creating a new international competition say in June or July somewhere, how could this be done. Feedback from curlers in such competitions is that they want to stay on site, no walking much, and certainly no driving. We then had to look at how many beds were available on site. There is a myth circulating that a six sheeter hosting an international competition will attract a full entry of international p[layers needing accommodation -- the evidence is that only about 70% of the entries will be international, the remainder will be sufficiently local to travel and save on costs. So on that basis six sheets can work, even with fewer beds available. However, it is seldom the case that an entire hotel is occupied by curlers, there are other regular customers to consider.

All I am pointing out is that IF an entire hotel(s) is occupied, how many curlers will that be, and what number of sheets will it take to run the competition. Bear in mind, the competition will have to compete with some of the very best elsewhere in the world, where the curlers ARE on site having a very good time! The last thing you want is one team staying down the road with Mrs Brown and another waiting for a bus!

This is just more of the Fear Uncertainty Doubt principal from you John. By my quick reckoning, there are 104 rooms in hotels within a 5 minute walk of the Market Park, not counting B&Bs, and a further 36 (I think) at the Travellodge, which is a 15 minute walk.

I have no idea what occupancy rates they get at the weekend in Winter, but I don't often see a full car park on a Sunday morning when I walk past the Green Hotel.

I have been reading topic's on this forum for a while now and I have decided to register...This whole debate about the new NCA has got me going...  some of the views on this subject are astonishing! We have a gentleman who is very forthright in his technical views...however when challenged seems to backtrack a little when suits...are we honestly trying to say that six lanes of ice is that much more difficult to maintain to a standard than four...sorry but I can't see that at all... management of time springs to mind...why is Aberdeen successful then for example? It has already been said it's more than possible with the right personel and this by the same person who is TELLING US IT CAN'T BE DONE??..so which one is it? If this centre is to be built and it's going to be known as Scotland's New National Curling Academy surely it will WANT to attract top competitions in the future?? Christ it's a business for god's sake! New ventures like this are not easy to pull off regardless of what the sport is,so hence will need to be open to change as it goes along thats the construction industry,it would be very interesting to hear the other side of the whole Kinross story as it's all a bit one sided at the moment in my opinion...it would also be interesting to have the view of some other technically minded people?? Good evening.

Glad you are joining us RIT...and pleased to see steveW is still active. All opinions welcome, we can all make up our own minds if we have enough information. The more contributions the more information,,,usually.
Join in and enjoy.

For Bob's opinion on the meeting in Kinross, follow the link:

http://curlingtoday.blogspot.com/2009/02/national-curling-academy.html

Thanks, Bob, you've saved me a bit of time and you're better at it anyway. But it was a presentation, well presented, like a box nicely wrapped up in pretty paper with a ribbon around it, finished with a smart little bow on top, or was it a frilly flower. What's in the box?

The RCCC takes my breath away. What they are involved in is a monstrously difficult undertaking (edit -- JM), dealing with so many parties, agencies, experts, rules & regs, you name it. They are doing well, I mean VERY well. It is not easy. This was clear from last night, they are doing their best, by the book, and making good progress. How Dave Steel & Co manage to do the same all on their own for Fife Curling Trust really beggars disbelief.

What we heard last night was not new, most had already been discussed here on the forum or been released by the RCCC. They want a six sheeter on the Market Park, they showed us pictures of that, and quickly reminded us that the pictures will change. They had appointed the Project Managers, but the PMs too will have to wait for the design. They have a design of sorts, thrashed out amongst all concerned, which they will present to the Design Team when such a team has been chosen, and then it would probably change again. They had financial costings, trying to stay under European restrictions, but it was unclear where the money would really come from or whether the figures would change. They will, and no doubt the curlers will pay whatever deficit, unless this can be reduced by raiding some secret European source. Of course, this will change too, considering the financial climate of our times.

I attended the meeting with Steven Kerr, on condition that he would break my legs if I said as much as one word. I still have my legs, I went to listen and not speak. He asked questions, which I had not given him, but I do agree with them. Where is the expertise coming from? Who would design the ice hall to ensure that it could produce excellent ice and give the ice techs a chance? The answer was that there are very few people in the country who could design such an ice hall. Note in Bob's blog: he has not been consulted, nor have I. Who knows, Stevie, you might end up on the Design team!

Considering all the factors anew, I must tell you that we heard nothing to change our minds or our position on the proposed NCA. Six sheets are too many for this facility, especially if Cupar starts building. The design that we were shown has already improved from the one I had last seen, but retains some serious flaws -- it can be done much, much better. Relying on hired plant from Aggreco is not a good idea, curling ice is not frozen water, it requires something more sensitive and controllable than what Aggreco delivers on a skid in August -- and never mind the cost. The rest regarding the Market Park, layout, etc. is not our problem and never was. I am also not going to discuss individuals or the background to the whole thing, that is covered here:

http://www.scottishcurlingicegroup.org/thecircle2.php

Well done, RCCC, and keep that momentum going. Now, if you were to reduce the size to five sheets and build the ice hall properly, you could well reduce the build and running costs sufficiently to be back on budget and have a facility that can compete with Cupar. But we are sure that what you are planning now is not the best way forward, there are better ways. We have tried and tried to tell you what we think and know, but we do not see the evidence that you want to listen to us. You know where we are, we will help where we can.

It is not the box, or the wrapping, or the pretty fluffy flower that matters, it is what is in the box. Will it thump us all under the chin when the lid opens?

Which reminds me of a time in Ireland (Eire) back in 1976 when I asked a man for directions. "Weeel now. If you go down this road, you come to a bend to the right, a tree to the left and a stone cross. That's not the road. If you go down that road there you'll come to a large barn without a roof, and a house with a cow in the upstairs window (true!), and further down that road there's a bridge over a dry stream. That's not the road either. Now, three miles back there's a road, and that's the one you missed."

This is not the time to keep driving down a road in hope, until we run out of fuel.