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Author Topic: RCCC action post Vernon Report.  (Read 2869 times)
JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2009, 02:14:48 PM »

There is no question in my mind that the status quo is not the way forward, and some 'thinking out of the box' (if you will forgive the jargon) is needed.
Most importantly, the basics of the curling delivery must be better taught to beginners than they are at the moment. I am appalled that some juniors playing competitively in the U-17 and Juniors appeared not to have mastered the basics of throwing the stone.

That's easy! So a team applies for a place amongst the elite, wishing to enter the Olympic scenario, as Juniors even. By a given date, say October year one of an Olympic cycle, make them some excellent ice in the new NCA and get them all to play Points. If they don't score at least fifty in year one or sixty in year two, they don't qualify!

That should focus their attention on sound technique for a few years. After all, curling is a simple game, line and length. If they can't achieve those, they shouldn't be there!
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« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2009, 02:48:19 PM »

"vulture" - cracking description.....i think that could become a well used term on the forum!!

I have to admit i lean towards JJK's ideas rather than Bobs -

What would be th epoint of a national championship that you didnt get to represent your country? Keep it simple and keep the primacy of the Scottish.

I would go further and say that the winners represent us at both Europeans and Worlds - why does there need to be a play-off for the europeans? It woul dgive the team more international exposure & experience.

Bob is right in what he says regarding the "Team" issue though -

Is there any merit in making the teams nominate their 5th player prior to the start of the finals week. That player cannot be from another team in the finals but can be from a team knocked out in the qualifiers or who didnt play at all. ( & dont give me any crap about these being substandard players - many of them would do a job on any team as 5th man - think of Alan Smiths team last year not qualifying or Pete smiths team a few years ago)
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« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2009, 02:53:44 PM »


Concern yourself with the future of the Scottish Championship and the views that may come the  newly formed Performance group as to how Scottish representative teams may be selected in future. You can rest assured the board will have, as all boards do, selected like minded people to themselves.
Your challenge is to figure out the boards objectives as far as the future method of selecting a Scottish team for the Worlds. Is it by open competition or closed selection? Will it be influenced by the RCCC's Olympic ambitions. Maybe!!!


We know G83's views on selection v trials .......is that reasoning and the reasons outlined above have something to do with his presence on the performance committee.................
conspiracy conspiracy?Huh?? (- sorry G83 only jesting.)
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« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2009, 03:38:17 PM »

I was going to say that I'm playing devil's advocate, but I'm NOT posting under two different avatars!

In my heart I agree wholeheartedly with jjk. The problem is with the reality of the current set up, that it is the Institute that runs elite curling, and it is British Curling that has the say about the Olympic teams (but note their remit is only to 2010 and what will happen thereafter is interesting to contemplate), and it is the RCCC that organises the Scottish. It is the reality of the moment that an 'outside' team could win the Scottish - the women's is wide open really. Would that Scotland had the depth of strong experienced teams that Canada has. The reality is that we don't, and given economic and commitment considerations now, I doubt we ever will. It is a reality that performances in the Worlds determine Olympic qualification. If you believe that we should only be sending the best prepared team possible to the world events, then we have to question if an open Scottish is really the right way?

There seems to be no point in going on that we need to keep the Scottish, or a US type system, given this particularly odd situation that we find ourselves in here for promoting and developing the sport at an elite level. Maybe the question we should be looking at is "How should elite curling be run in Scotland?" Is the Institute set up correct? Is the National Academy, Area Institutes, Regional Academy set up the correct way to be doing things? And as I've asked before, are we doing the right things to train, support and encourage the young talent who will become our representatives in the future?

And again, as the Olympics are GB, not Scotland, there are a good number of questions that need to be discussed about this. There are no easy answers to any of this! Long live the Forum.
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Robin Copland
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« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2009, 04:19:30 PM »

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Yes- no argument from me that we should be sending the winner of the Scottish Championship to the World CHampionships.

Personally, I would think about bringing the Scotish forward to late November, and send the winners to the Europeans as well as the Worlds, but I recognise that might cause difficulties.

In any case, and with the exception of the European Championships in an Olympic year, we are already doing that.  Long may it continue.  There are moves afoot, I believe, at the top of Scottish Curling, to introduce the concept of "picked" teams representing us at World and European Championships.  My own view is that that move would be an absolute disaster for the Scottish competitive curler.  Where would the incentive be for someone like a Dave Edwards or Alan Smith to carry on curling if he knew that, whatever he did, a picked team would be going out to representative competitions?

Listen, we need to face facts here - every team is picked!  What we are arguing about is "who picks the teams"?   And when the team is picked.  But to think that a "picked" team could go to a World or European Championship without so much as a competition or play-off - well that's a step too far.

OK - so what about the Olympics?  Why should things be different for the Olympics?  Should not the same rules apply there?  Well, the evidence suggests that it should!  Although Rhona Martin's team (the only GB team ever to win an Olympic Medal) was "picked", it was picked as a result of the team's performance in World and European Championships.  Note this well: they are the ONLY GB team to have won an Olympic Medal.  Period.  Although David Murdoch's team came a creditable fourth and went on to win the World Championships later that year, the fact is that, at the Olympic Games, they missed out on a medal - mind you - they missed out to a wonder shot from Mr Uusilpavalniemi!

Funny thing is though that I am more relaxed about the Olympic Squad system than I would be about Scotland's representatives.  There is no logic to that position, by the way - it's just the way I feel about it.  That having been said, surely the team has to be in place by mid September at the very latest - earlier if possible?  Surely it has to have competitive mileage under its belt before going to the European Championships to fight for Scotland's place in the upcoming World Championships?

On the vexed question of funding, I would like to see a longer tail and - I think that is beginning to happen.  I am not convinced by the "professional" funding that David and Euan are getting at the moment, though, and feel that that money could have been better spent.  Don't get me wrong - were I them, I would probably have taken it!  But I think that it is dangerous for a number of reasons. some of which have already been outlined in this thread already.

Re the mini tour, there used to be a "circuit" in Scotland.  We are not far away from one now.  Add the mini tour to the Masters and upgrade the Edinburgh International to the competition it used to be - and wham bam, thank you, Ma'am - you have your circuit.  We need a sponsor, mind you.  We need a sponsor!

Copy above is from a post that I put on the site on 11 June 2007.

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Here is the one thing that we should build some bastions around: the primacy of the Sottish Championships - Mens and Womens; the fact that the Scottish Champions should be allowed to represent their country at (if we have qualified) the World Championships.  I worry that at some time in the not-too-distant future, someone is going to suggest that we DON'T send the champions to the Worlds.  Don't fancy that, I am afraid.  Don't fancy that at all.

That was from 12 December 2007.

I got the impression from DA that he was suggesting that I am for "picked" teams for the World Championships.  I am not.

As everyone knows, you will have to work quite hard to move me from that position and - I am nothing if not consistent.

Regarding the Vernon issue, I would like to put on record that I feel genuinely sorry for all concerned that what should have been a highlight in everyone involved's curling career has become 101 sad pages for the rest of us to gloat over.

Gorth, on the subject of the advisablilty, or otherwise, of an independent report, I wrote on 28 March 2008
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In any case and all that having been said, it goes without saying that there needs to be a full and frank disclosure of what actually went on.  There needs to be a report done.  The report should be prepared NOT by the coaches, NOR by the players, NOR by anyone with any kind of vested interest.  They should have input, of course they should and they should be interviewed away from the public eye to get to the bottom of what happened.  Lessons should be learned and implemented.  Dunoonrock is right - there was a similar incident a few years ago, but it was all so long ago now that the "corporate" bodies will have no memory of it.  Shame.  Things might have been handled differently.


For the record, I stand by that statement as well.

Can you imagine the stooshie on this board had there NOT been an independent review?  There would have been dark mutterings about carpets, brushes and cries from all sides of "unfair"!  Had to be done, I am afraid.

On the subject of the panel on which I have been asked to sit, I have precious little time to do anything else, but feel the need to "give something back".  I certainly will not be going on as some kind of patsy as some have suggested.
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2009, 05:17:27 PM »

good on you G83.

I think you will serve us well on the committee, and it is gratifying to know that we now have an unofficial conduit from the forum to the RCCC.

I apologise for my misrepresentation on your stance on "selected" teams as the topic in recent memory was the US trials thread where you held the view that selection was best as we ran the risk of sending an untried team to the Olympics.

Surely the principle is the same for both instances (worlds & olympics). Why the difference in the stance between the two? - especially when one system affects the other.

Should there not be a clear pyramid of success for the athletes with the Olympics at the top. An aim that is acheivable by any team who have the talent and puts in the effort.

Take the Olympic 4 year cycle - Possibly up to 4 scottish winners, who each have international experience of playing at the worlds. Possibly another team who have managed to win through to the europeans. possibly another couple of teams who have competed in the WCT-E and scottish circuit to gain ranking points over the 4 year period.

You could quite easily have a field of 6 to 8 teams of the highest quality in a trials event (we possibly dont have 8 at present - but if the carrot is dangled after the vancouver games, i am sure there will be a number of teams who will focus on getting to the olympics - hence the argument that a trials system will help the domestic game)
This possibly gets over the nationality (english/welsh) issues as mixed teams could gain entry through the ranking system or places could be reserved for the best english & welsh representative.

Anyway back to the point - The Olympic selection system fundamentally affects our Scottish Championship and our representation. It also fundamentally affects the health of the competitive game and the number of teams participating. We cannot argue on one hand that competitive representation is what we want  (worlds) and not on the other hand (olympic trials) Therefore there has to be a decision made at the highest level on which road to take. They then have to fight to make it happen.

The RCCC need to make the decision that they wish to maintain competitive representation. That must be taken to its logical conclusion at the top of the pyramid to Olympic Trials and Olympic participation for the winners.

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Robin Copland
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2009, 05:26:00 PM »

Quote from DA at the start of this thread
Quote
Here's my starter for 10 -
1)Winners / finalists in Scottish Championships (men & ladies) get the funding and use of SIS support staff for a year until the START of the qualifiers the following season.

2)No team is allowed SIS support throughout the championship from the qualifier stage thus everybody is playing on a level field. By rights the teams that have been receiving the support should have an advantage but if they do not perform then they dont get funded or SIS support for the next year. Somebody else will get the chance of the support and funding which will increase the depth of talent.

3)The teams finishing further down the order - say from 3rd to 6th get allocated a number of days / hours that they have access to the support network of SIS for the forthcoming year until the start of next years championship. They should also get a degree of funding.

4)The other finalists should get a degree of funding to cover their event expenses or use to purchase services from SIS.

I have a lot of sympathy with DA's suggestions,  Of course, a source for the funding will need to be identified (the BOA would not sanction the use of their funds in this way for reasons already discussed).  Some may say that the £15000 spent on the Vernon report would be a starter, but that was very much a "one-off" expense and unless the subs were raised by >£1.00 per member per year, the amount would not be sustainable over the long term.

I do not have the facts to hand, but I suspect that a number of the competitors in this year's Scottish Finals were funded through one of the support schemes that have already been discussed / debated on the forum (National Academy, Regional Institute or Regional Academy).

I agree that one of the unfortunate side-effects of the Olympic adventure is the "them and us" approach that the coaching staff take.  

Where I find this particularly petty though is at junior level.  It is a practice that must stop in my view.  The two finalists (neither of whom had neen nationally-supported teams) rather stuck two fingers up the establishment by qualifying fair and square for the final.

One other thing - if I may be allowed to get a bee out my bonnet.  Would more people please do what I do at curling matches from time to time when faced with blatant favouritism in the crowd?  If you see someone applauding "their" team's fantastic 50% hit and roll out and sitting on their hands when the opposition play a 110% hit and roll behind cover - just go up to the offending person and tell them what curling is all about.  This isn't some ned-like sport where you applaud the opposition's misses!  Acknowledgement of a good shot played should be what it is all about.
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Robin Copland
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2009, 05:33:25 PM »

Quote
Surely the principle is the same for both instances (worlds & olympics). Why the difference in the stance between the two? - especially when one system affects the other.

For the reasons already stated in earlier posts.

You reiterate a good point though - there is a real conflict developing when it comes to qualifying GB for the Olympics.  Again see earlier threads for the arguments.
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2009, 10:43:18 PM »

Is there any way we can allocate the funding available to teams according to the following areas
1) Olympic funding + support
2)Scot Institute funding for elite athletes
3)National / regional academy funding (or is that the same as 2 above)
4)General development funding for grassroots.

That way we could see what the RCCC has control over and what they could do with it and also see how the SIS funding is split between the olympics and the normal game.

I think we need to get the funding thing straightened out before we alter the other structures of competition - we have to see where the RCCC has the influence to change things (or where the BC rule the roost).

Possibly a start would be to see the SIS / academy funding on a team basis (especially juniors)
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« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2009, 06:28:01 PM »

I would like to see the world championships preserved as a celebration of curling. We have an astonishing and I think unique system where any four curlers can enter the world championship by way of a national championship, and if they keep winning they are it.

We have an open sport. Or at least we had until the Olympic threat turned up. Elitist perfection required, at any price.  Vernon reminds us of just how high that price can be.

Let them have their selector driven elitist by-invitation-only Olympic squad, but let us keep the Open World championship, and the open access to that place by virtue of winning the Scotish.

And if they want to find out every four years who the best team is let them, but let it not interfere with real curling.
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