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Author Topic: RCCC action post Vernon Report.  (Read 2869 times)
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« on: March 08, 2009, 08:02:47 PM »


The psychic Bob Cowan had two paragraphs in his 1 page expose on Vernon in the Scottish Curler that will be fundamental to Scottish competitive curling if the RCCC actually act on the report.

I quote directly from the article -

"Things have to change. The current way of selecting our international representatives is a lottery between those who have the backing of all the Scottish Institute support and those who dont."

also

"When the Vernon report is published, and the hype dies down, the Royal Club Board has got to define the way that elite Scottish Curling should go forward. The status quo is not really an option, is it?"

Bob is right on the money - but what action will the RCCC take? what action SHOULD they take?

Here's my starter for 10 -
1)Winners / finalists in Scottish Championships (men & ladies) get the funding and use of SIS support staff for a year until the START of the qualifiers the following season.

2)No team is allowed SIS support throughout the championship from the qualifier stage thus everybody is playing on a level field. By rights the teams that have been receiving the support should have an advantage but if they do not perform then they dont get funded or SIS support for the next year. Somebody else will get the chance of the support and funding which will increase the depth of talent.

3)The teams finishing further down the order - say from 3rd to 6th get allocated a number of days / hours that they have access to the support network of SIS for the forthcoming year until the start of next years championship. They should also get a degree of funding.

4)The other finalists should get a degree of funding to cover their event expenses or use to purchase services from SIS.

I am sure i can manage a few more ideas, but the main one is that the allocation of funding and support is transparent and will only last as long as the next championship - so that all who enter have an equal chance.
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 09:21:03 PM »

Interesting thoughts
"Things have to change. The current way of selecting our international representatives is a lottery between those who have the backing of all the Scottish Institute support and those who dont."

It seems always to bring up the subject between funded and non funded teams!Sure it would be great to have financial help who would say no!
Why is it that we are now looking at the 5th player more than not coming into teams due to performance, surely in the bigger picture we are wanting to produce or encourage all curlers to pursue and maintain performance levels nobody goes out to play badly so I agree about having a support structure that supports all curlers.
Whether people choose to take that support or want to be part of it is whether they want to put the time in? Surely we are wanting to make "elite curlers" of all teams and players participating in our championships then representing our nation. As you say a level playing field is maybe all that we are asking for?
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 10:30:13 PM »
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Sandy Morton
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 11:16:18 PM »

I think that you will find that the President is ex-officio on every committee.
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« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2009, 09:57:31 AM »

Come on guys - everybody is busy raking over things on the vernon thread - lets get something constructive out of it.
What do you want to see done? What changes need to be made?
You are all very good at slagging off - lets hear your solutions!
G83 is on the performance committee now - he reads the forum - let him know what you think needs doing.!!
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strathydoug
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2009, 10:09:56 AM »

That's the most constructive post I've seen on here in ages DA
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Doug
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2009, 10:39:09 AM »

Good idea. I'll have a stab at it.

The Vernon situation was during the Worlds Ladies. A team won the right to be there and did their best, but it wasn't working. It appears that the coaching side didn't work either. Why?

A clash of personalities, maybe, it will always happen when the wheels fall off. A clash of philosophies, certainly, the RCCC wants to win the Worlds, the rest are looking to the Olympics. Two coaching systems, two aims, two sources of funding, who is in charge. For me the key problem and solution lies with the RCCC statement, and the future position of the National Coach. There should be one coach, one philosophy and one team going to the Worlds. If that team makes it because it played by the rules and earned the right, then NO-ONE should be messing with that.

So, how to find and develop team GB for the Olympics. Select players and get on with it, if that is the system and the funding so rules. But do not mess with the winning Scottish team during the Worlds! The National Coach should NOT be pulling rank from the Olympic perspective! The National Coach should NOT have anything to do with the Worlds unless he/she is fully dedicated to -- and under governance of -- the RCCC and all it stands for. The RCCC on the other hand does NOT send teams to the Olympics, British Curling does.

There are three Worlds before an Olympic year, and three teams could represent Scotland, and they could all win or lose. So what? That has nothing to do with the Olympics, and if a seperate team is composed from players of all the Worlds teams, so what? But to have ONE team, selcted and nurtured for the Olympics, dominating Scottish curling because they get all the help there is, that is bad news for Scottish competitive curling. If they happen to win fair and square and does so ala team Murdoch, good for them -- they happen to be the best team and if they're also the Olympic team, so what?

I don't need to say any of this, I believe the RCCC is already on the case. That will be the legacy of Vernon, and it is positive.
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2009, 11:09:21 AM »

There is no question in my mind that the status quo is not the way forward, and some 'thinking out of the box' (if you will forgive the jargon) is needed. I suggested in another thread some ideas that might be considered. May I throw some of these into the discussion again.

1. Everyone assumes that the winners of the Scottish Championships should be the teams that go to the Worlds. The problem of course, as has been pointed out elswhere often, the World events are qualification for the Olympics, which, rightly or wrongly, seem to be the olnly thing that matter at the moment. Perhaps, just perhaps, the future should hold something different. Could it not be that the winning teams (men and women) do NOT go to the Worlds when they win the Scottish, but get funding to allow them to compete in, say, three World Curling Tour (Curling Champions Tour) events in the following season. Perhaps a cash prize incentive too. And Institute support, if they don't already have it. The Scottish (or perhaps it could be the British Championship) is open to any four curlers, and as many teams as possible encouraged to enter, including the Institute teams.

2. The sportscotland/Scottish Institute elite curling group comprises two, or possibly three, 5-man (and 5-woman) teams which compete in Tour events as at present, and get all the support currently on offer. All five in each team must buy into this (ie no support for just a couple in a team and none for others). I say teams, not squads. It is only these teams that will play off to decide which goes to the Europeans, and to the Worlds. I say five man teams, not just to cover illness, but to get round the unsavoury business of selecting an alternative from another team, and ending up fielding a team at the Worlds which has never actually played together before. And each team still has to win the right to be our international reps. And we get around fears that an untried team might go through. And we're not picking individual curlers into squads.  

3. The Royal Club puts ALL its efforts into developing junior teams and strengthening the Scottish Junior Championships. Much more should be put into junior curling in all its forms - juniors, U-17, schools, camps. But most importantly, the basics of the curling delivery must be better taught to beginners than they are at the moment. I am appalled that some juniors playing competitively in the U-17 and Juniors appeared not to have mastered the basics of throwing the stone.

I'm sorry if I appear to be labouring this point, but let's get back to the importance of the TEAM, rather than picking individuals. Working as teams, playing as teams, losing as teams, enjoying the competition, having rivalries, and winning as teams.

Psychic Bob
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2009, 11:21:14 AM »

Interesting, Bob. Let's see what happens if there are three teams who enter competitions in preparation for the Olympics. To have any chance of being the final team, they will have to think long and hard about who is in or out, and if they can afford to commit themselves for a few years. Once these teams have been settled, that's the cream off the top and everyone else will have to fight in hope.

So these teams will, almost certainly, enter the Scottish. That makes sense. Along comes British Curling wanting to form a different team, robbing these teams. That's trouble, bang goes the system. Isn't this what's happening already?

In my view, keep it simple. Enter the Scottish, win and progress to the Worlds. Over the years a separate squad evolves to include the cream, and this squad can also enter the Scottish and progress, all the way to the Olympics. Worlds for qualifying points should not be part of the domestic competitive scene, and confusing the issue with NO progress to the Worlds -- and never mind cash prizes -- will not work as well.
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2009, 11:23:13 AM »
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Forget Vernon for the present, the Boards nominated disciplinary panel will decide the next course of action, wither or not you agree with that.

Consider the way forward, is it not the case to meet the Olympic team criteria and funding the representative team must be selected from the best British players for each position. That why you have to nominate your desire to join it.

Concern yourself with the future of the Scottish Championship and the views that may come the  newly formed Performance group as to how Scottish representative teams may be selected in future. You can rest assured the board will have, as all boards do, selected like minded people to themselves.
Your challenge is to figure out the boards objectives as far as the future method of selecting a Scottish team for the Worlds. Is it by open competition or closed selection? Will it be influenced by the RCCC's Olympic ambitions. Maybe!!!
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strathydoug
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2009, 11:53:29 AM »

Does the WCF have some sort of criteria for a team competing atthe Worlds?

i.e. does the team have to be National Champions?#


Not sure where I would find this out
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« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2009, 11:54:53 AM »

WCF office is in Perth.
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James Hustler
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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 12:30:56 PM »

Does the WCF have some sort of criteria for a team competing atthe Worlds?

i.e. does the team have to be National Champions?#


Not sure where I would find this out

From the WCF rulebook (available online although *still* not downloadable as it was on the old WCF site.)

Quote
C2.        PARTICIPATING TEAMS

(a)     Each team is designated by its Association/Federation.
(b)     If a designated team is unable or unwilling to participate, the Association/Federation involved nominates another team.
(c)     The teams for each event must be declared at least 14 days prior to the start of the competition.

So the answer is No I guess the Scottish Champions need not be the representative team at the Worlds.
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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 12:53:13 PM »

the answer is definitely no. As far as I am aware, Switzerland is inches (read 12 months) away from creating a national team/squad which will make the Swiss League and Swiss Championships (e.g. 3 weekends round-robin plus a whole week for the final 10) unnecessary because there won't be anything to win at the champs anymore.

Will be interesting to see who of the top teams will resign / turn away from elite curling. Personally, wether it is Scotland or Switzerland, I think that development will prove desastrous for the sport as a whole. What point is there in playing very expensive championships if you have not a possibilty to represent your country internationally as a goal in front of your eyes?
And if you don't have a national championship that deserves it's name anymore, where does the national team get the playing experience necessary from? And more importantly, where do the future national teams get their championship experience from? (Because before you get the funding to attend overseas evens, you will have to prove your capabilites on home turf, won't you? Just that there won't be many high class home turf events with the championships gone...)
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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 01:06:55 PM »

It definately does NOT have to be national champions.... many countries send teams that are not national champions but IMHO that reflects badly on these countries. I believe Switzerlad is worryingly going down the selection path too and that will be a disaster for european curling but who can blame them. Norway and Scotland (and switzerland) will have a lot of blood on their hands when competitive domestic curling dies in the not too distant future.
Bobs ideas, of course, have merit but they are pandering to the prevailing mood which is dangerous for any sport. A few possible problems for bobs scenarios.
1. The teams in the elite squad would try and avoid playing in the scottish (this has happened in other countries). They have nothing to gain and everything to lose.
2. Teams in the squad would change line up in the course of a cycle and that leads to all these arguments about retaining at least 2 members and assorted body parts of at least two others etc.
3.It comes down to selection and the opinions of a few coaches.... do you really really want to go there!

Why not have national championships and olympic play offs....    someone call for it to be voted on at the rccc agm as scotlands preferred way?
Show some ambition and aspire to the Candian way... USA is, and seems to be thriving to me. Have faith in your champions, support them and encourage them. Remember what sport is about.
Where Bob is absolutely right is that curling IS (or used to be) a team sport. Does anyone have the stats for how teams which have had a "vulture" on the bench have performed against those who took their own 5th player.
Once a player start worrying about their stats they are finished. A team tries to help their mate out when they are having a bad patch. A team knows what a player can bring to the party apart from their stats.
Can you imagine what it must do to a player to win your national championship and then be dropped, either after a few games or in some cases after no games. Do you care? Or is it about the "bigger picture".... perceived Olympic Glory with discarded young (and old) curlers scattered along the path.
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