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Author Topic: Stones and Ice  (Read 1220 times)
JohnMinnaar
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« on: February 02, 2009, 10:51:37 AM »


There are two things that have to work together to make curling work, the stones and the ice. There are two ways of going about it, controlling the stones and controlling the ice. If the stones remain constant, the ice remains the only variable, and if that can be controlled then the game is down to the players and their skills. If the stones do not remain constant there are two variables, and everyone tries to blame one or the other when things go wrong. It used to be the ice that was blamed, never mind the facts, but now it is becoming the stones. Why?

There are two kinds of curling stone to note here: naturally matured stones, which will after a few months have a smooth and consistent running band, and artificially matured stones, which will have been prepared by the stone makers to resemble whatever they deem the ideal to be. In cold countries of -30C OT and say 2C AT inside, the IST could be as cold as -5C with no means of warming it up. On such a surface the NM stones will not curl much, while the AM stones will have been prepared with a rougher running band to create sufficient friction to curl. In warmer countries with an OT of 10C and an AT of 7C, the IST can be as warm as -3.2C. On such a surface the NM stones will curl well and will be extremely consistent, provided the IST remains constant -- usually the IST will be maintained at -3.8C to provide the required consistent temperature. The AM stones will however curl far too much, as much as 12ft, on the same warm surface.

In large curling rinks (more than four sheets) the control of the parameters become much more difficult, and the workload to maintain the ice surface becomes beyond the average technician. In order to save time and to overcome the problems of control technicians run the ice colder, usually colder than -4.5C. In effect, they are creating the same conditions as those in colder countries, and are then forced to use AM stones to create sufficient curl. To go one better, they buy a pack of sanding paper and slide the stones over the paper to roughen the running bands, resulting in the dives sometimes seen when they overdo it. Many technicians have ruined their stones by doing this. More cautious ice techs send their stones to Kays to be refurbished, with a more consistent finish and more predictable behaviour, and Kays have become very good at this. So we enter the realm of "competition" stones, prepared by Kays for cold ice in arenas, and "club" stones, which will behave themselves on warmer ice.

There is however one problem: the rough texture of AM stones does not last very long. After a month or so the stones become smoother and gradually straighter, and after another few months they become NM stones. Instead of using the parameters to control the ice, the technician sends the stones back to Kays for another refurb. But the stones also have two sides, and these can be prepared for "club" one side and "competition" the other, and if a technician saves the comp side for serious comps the curlers will be happy. This side will last for a few competitions and then gradually become smoother, while the club side will be whatever it is allowed to become.

The question has to be asked: which is the better way. Arena specialists will study the competition stones well in advance before making the ice, and will have data from other venues to use. That is why there are sets of WCF stones travelling the world in boxes. Cold rinks (and usually large ones) do not have the luxury, they have to contend with club curling every day and two sets of stones will be too much of a luxury. I have every sympathy with these guys, but I have also seen arena ice with NM stones that work extremely well, and probably better. When working with NM stones there is a constant, because these stones do not change their behaviour very quickly (I know of NM stones that have been in use for twenty years, with no refurbishment!). They are easy to match into pairs and sets, and they make for wonderful curling. With such a constant it becomes possible to fine-tune the ice to such an extent that the ice becomes a constant. To me it is quite clear: NM stones and warmer ice is the right way to go. It is easier, better, cheaper and extremely controllable.

The Circle was designed to create the right conditions for curling, using either AM or NM stones. It was designed as a four sheeter (but five can work) to avoid the problems of larger rinks and the high running costs. It does not surprise me that the RCCC and MHG want to build a six-sheet NCA, they know very little about stones and ice and are easily persuaded by technicians who tell them what they want to hear. It does not surprise me that these technicians work in large rinks and often do not produce the best conditions, because the problems are enormous. So why build an NCA that is too big, too difficult to maintain and too expensive to run? They all want the glory of competitions, never mind the club curlers who pay the bills. If any of them had any knowledge or sense, they would be building the Circle and avoid the problems, especially those caused by cold temperatures and artificially matured stones. It is not necessary to go that way, and this is regularly proved when a large rink cannot provide excellent conditions not only for competitions, but on a regular daily basis.
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Sandy Morton
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 11:15:00 AM »

Thanks JM - enjoyed and learned.
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Ken
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 03:18:51 PM »

Hey, talking about scratching the surface! Keep going John, but don't scratch too hard. This stuff is over the head, like.....
One thing though. Is it possible to match scratched stones?
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fermerfaefife
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 04:10:59 PM »

Interesting stuff John.

Would you say that some sets of older stones  actually could be better sets than new stones if they are given the correct environment?

Are there any types of stone that are better than others and if you had to get a hold of a set what would you go for?

Do you have any views on inserted stones?
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 04:19:19 PM »

Is it possible to match scratched stones?

Yes, but it depends how well they should be matched. The parabolic curve of an AM stone is less predictable than that of a NM stone, so it will take some time just for that. The speed is less of a problem, but because the AM stones are more aggressive on the pebble they will wear the pebble more, unlike the NM stones, and with the latter you could probably match all 16 stones on a sheet within ten minutes. As you'll know, it is not a bright idea to match too many stones on the same ice, and even then the ice has to be very good! Add to this the problem that the AM stones will lose their characteristics week by week, it would be best to match them every week, but what idiot is going to bother doing that?

Give me NM stones every time.....
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 04:26:00 PM »

Would you say that some sets of older stones  actually could be better sets than new stones if they are given the correct environment?

Yes. There are some very good stones about even today, and if they were properly matched you would be in heaven. Forest Hills had good running bands (but the striking bands were flat!), and Stranraer also has very good running bands. Neither place sanded their stones, ever.

Quote
Are there any types of stone that are better than others and if you had to get a hold of a set what would you go for?

Kays now supply very good stones, and you basically have to take what you can get. I would go for a Trefor body with Ailserts both sides, but I'm not sure if Kays use Trefor now.

Quote
Do you have any views on inserted stones?

The blue-hone granite used for inserts ("Ailserts") is very hard and durable, which is what the running bands need to last (why sand them and ruin them!!!!!). I think the consensus amongst the stone makers is that inserts are a must for that reason.
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Ken
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2009, 10:18:57 AM »

Hey, John. If I've got it right, you're saying the new NCA will have all the same problems as the other big rinks, because of size and stones? I mean, aren't they really just creating a new place and moving all the same problems to it from other rinks? Do these people have brains??
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2009, 03:25:44 PM »

When we did our research for the Circle the biggest single problem was the size of the rink. We looked at ice requirements, income, expenses, man hours, work load and the art of the possible. We believe we understand the problems involved in maintaining an ice pad as cost effectively as possible, simply to provide a product that could be considered by all to be within specification, and fair to all customers. There is no doubt that a six sheeter can provide excellent ice for a competition, when extra staff and effort make this possible. However, I do not know of a rink in Scotland where this is done every day, for every game. I know of one in Switzerland and one in Canada, and both their ice technicians are supremely committed to the task and of the highest order. In Scotland I am reminded of that very famous quote (name withheld!) of "some draw, in places, at times".

So, to answer your question, if the NCA is going to be a six sheeter, it will be the same as now. No gain, no change, because the same excuses will suffice: "We don't have the time", "we don't have the staff", "it's the same for both sides". What happens is that revenue does not stretch to more wages, the work simply cannot be done by one man, and that one man has to take the blame for loss of ice quality. If he has a very thick skin he can bluff his way through (which many do now anyway), but it has already been determined that the specification of what curling ice should be is not down to one man.

The introduction of sanded stones has given many rinks a lift in reputation, with endless reports of "good ice this year". I'm very happy for them, but this year the reports are going the other way. Many rinks have spent a fortune on new stones and had "good ice" for a season, and are back to the same old stuff the season after. If those rinks can afford to refurbish their stones every two months, fine, but my own thinking is that this is a waste of money that curlers should not be expected to pay for.

It was our conclusion that the Circle could do its work of providing good ice every day for every player ONLY if it was built as a four sheeter. By pushing everything to the limit we believe we can do it in a five sheeter as well, but not a six. We stand accused of having "too high a standard" that ordinary club curlers do not need -- the only standard we have is that defined by the WCF in its Specific Definition of Curling Ice. I did not make this definition, I simply typed the words I was given, and those words were and are the consensus of players, coaches and technicians the world over. Having a six-foot dive with sanded stones just because some curlers or technicians like it is not a balanced definition.

I'll tell you what, Ken, you should apply for the job in the new NCA. I didn't think you'd be that stupid, but someone just as intelligent as you will be just that stupid.
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Robin Copland
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 04:36:16 PM »

I know that climate conditions are different in Canada, but interestingly, of the 31 rinks that I played in over there, all provided excellent ice.  The rinks varied in size from a two-sheeter in Lennoxville to an eight-sheeter in Toronto (part of a multi-sport club).

We were struck by the consistency of weight across the Provinces.  The ice was obviously a major topic of conversation after our games; we were told that the conditions we were experiencing were the norm and had not been laid on specially.

All of this is anecdotal, I know, but nonetheless interesting to share.

I was on the east coast tour, so did not go further west that Ontario.
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JohnMinnaar
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 05:56:52 PM »

Interesting, G83, but not surprising. In the East (higher population) there is generally a high standard of ice, simply because the rinks are usually run by the members and the ice techs work on contract. Competition is fierce, because only the better ones will end up as ice masters with full-time employment. Had the same situation existed here (and the same climate), no doubt the ice here would also be better across the board. Some of the very best technicians in the world are based in that area and the ones I've met are VERY dedicated people to the cause of curling ice.
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